Could a Jedi fight a Space Marine

Geek vs Geek

Hey Cato, thank you very much for your detailed contribution and at the same time sorry for the late reply ... :(. I almost wish I could rebut your arguments on a large scale, but you seem to be too well informed for that. But I read every single one with pleasure ( After all, it is such discussions that are why we are doing the podcast in the first place). But I still try to take a stand (also on behalf of the others). Of course, no point is meant bad here either;).

Attention, now there is an enormous wall of text, unfortunately I lost control while writing ...

1. The Imperial laser rifle is very powerful and could pierce today's tank with ease, but the Stormtrooper blaster has a higher rate of fire.

Re 1 .: Are you sure that an imperial laser rifle is really that powerful? Don't get me wrong, it sure is a useful weapon. In my opinion, this usefulness stems from its versatility (less dependent on ammunition, fewer mechanical parts required = less weight, etc.). The biggest problem the Imperial Army has is that, above all, it needs many weapons that are easy to manufacture. There are enough men (as you have already noticed yourself). Judging by today's weapons, I would perhaps compare the penetration ability of laser rifles to the assault rifles of our time. I base this assumption primarily on the rules of Warhammer40k (and related systems such as Inquisitor), where it is often said that the laser rifle is more of an example of the standard armament of Imperial soldiers. This means that there are also regiments (e.g. Makropol gang members who were forcefully recruited) that use auto rifles (equivalent to the assault rifles of our time). In these cases these guns have the same stats as laser rifles.

In addition, such powerful standard weapons would also require that the armor of tanks in the WH40k universe is far more effective than that of tanks of our time. But that would overestimate the technical progress of the WH40k empire. Of course there are technological masterpieces such as space marines, titans and plasma weapons, but one should keep in mind that these achievements are not those of the empire but those of a pre-imperial era and their secrets have long been forgotten. What is still in use is guarded like a sanctuary and cannot (easily) be replaced if lost. This means that the Imperial Army in particular, which focuses on “quantity rather than class”, has to work with technologies and resources that are easy to obtain and manufacture. I would almost say that an Imperial Leman Russ tank (apart from laser cannons and better fuel systems, etc.) is technologically at the very best on the level of a modern tank of our time and accordingly the standard weapons of the Imperial soldiers are no more powerful than our own.

2. I have never seen that the stormtrooper armor brought anything (especially against lasers), while 40k images also show laser bulletins, grooves and cuts in the armor, from which one can conclude that the armor of the Imperial Guard is STRONGER than that of a stormtrooper, as it can withstand multiple laser shots from the more powerful Imperial laser rifle, blade and bullet. If the stormtrooper armor fails with a weak laser (although the weak laser is actually what it has to withstand) then I see black against bullets, bolt projectiles and imperial laser rifles. The only thing they could resist would be shrapnel or debris. Why should the bullet resist if no one shoots a bullet in Star Wars?

To 2 .: I would like to “turn around” your argument here. I myself suspect that the armaments of WH40k Imperial soldiers are so effective because laser rifles are not. In addition, there is the point that in a universe in which technology stagnates (i.e. no further developments take place or these are even punished), the defense against offensive measures (such as laser shots) at some point will achieve maximum effectiveness (i.e. the maximum cost-benefit factor ) reached. Developing laser rifles further (by improving lenses or power delivery, for example) is techno-heresy. Flanging a few additional armor plates on armor for better protection is less noticeable (and it is probably of more interest for an ordinary soldier to survive a hit or two more than to deal a little more damage). Of course we often hear about the many alien and demon threats to the Empire, but the main enemy for an Imperial soldier is probably other, ordinary (traitor) soldiers with similar equipment and armament and that for over 10,000 years, i.e. you know how to protect yourself . There is only war in the Warhammer 40k universe, but that war remains more or less the same.

The Star Wars universe, on the other hand, is constantly changing. A common theme in Star Wars is that new destructive technology is constantly being developed: ion cannons, battle droids, star destroyers, clone soldiers, death stars, world destroyers, intergalactic torpedo launchers, etc. Here we have exactly the opposite case, that offensive technology develops faster than defensive technology. The weapon systems in Star Wars are very powerful and are constantly being developed and accordingly it is very difficult to develop a suitable defense against it that is not undermined in a very short time. The armor of stormtroopers is more likely to serve a) the psychological effect (faceless, sinister-looking figures, which can be quite scary inexorably charging) and b) as protection against atmospheric influences. The much higher travel speed in Star Wars (once across the galaxy in a few weeks or less) means that stormtroopers potentially serve on many more planets in their careers than the Imperial soldiers, who are often only drafted for a crusade and never leave a certain system / sector and be able to adapt accordingly (or there are special regiments for special situations). Assuming that the further development of technology in the Star Wars empire is not prohibited but even desired, I would assume that (provided you have enough time and that is actually always the case with clumsy WH40K empires) the armor of the stormtroopers to the ( moderate) penetration power of laser rifles could be adjusted and then the WH40k empire has a problem (there are of course assault and heavy weapons, but they are by far not as widespread as the laser rifle). Incidentally, stormtroopers are very effective soldiers when properly managed. For a very plausible explanation why they fight the rebels so inefficiently, especially at the end, I can recommend the “Thrawn” trilogy to you.

3. The stormtroopers seem to be used to escort missions or a little idle pirate / smuggler hunt, but the Imperial Guard endures the most terrible fears and all-encompassing wars, planet deaths, terrible rituals, mutilated, torn, desecrated corpses and fights against beings every day against which they have no chance and constantly endure things that would have driven a stormtrooper crazy several times. Why should they be afraid of stormtroopers, i.e. people? They are not even afraid of dying, they are terribly afraid of dying. Morale would be very high, and the stormtroopers would be disgusted with the cruelty and fanaticism and full of disgust, since they are not used to it. A campaign against the stormtroopers would be a summer vacation for an Imperial soldier

Re 3 .: You are of course right that the opponents of the Imperial Army are “generally” a lot more terrible than those of the stormtroopers, but that also assumes that the stormtroopers encounter a regiment that already has combat experience (with one of these horrors ) Has. However, considering the size of the WH40k empire and the travel speed, this is statistically unlikely. And even if they do, the combat experience is mostly based on skirmishes with rebellious governors or pirates. In addition, the empire is not exactly a specialist in maintaining experience and expertise. If an imperial regiment encounters a demon army, for example, then the regiment is interned and at the next opportunity burned as a punitive regiment or executed immediately to prevent contamination. That means there are only aliens left and stormtroopers know their way around. And by comparison, these are often veterans who have already seen dozens or even hundreds of planets, since they can get from A to B faster. Stormtroopers are also familiar with larger skirmishes (see, for example, the assault on the rebel base on Hoth). Incidentally, I think pretty much every ordinary Imperial soldier dreams of surviving his service and getting a piece of land or a garrison job somewhere. So I don't think they are as deadly as you portray them. Often they are just more afraid of their superiors (commissioners!) Than of the enemy. And only because they are threatened with immediate death from these too. And even that doesn't always work.

Oh God already written so much and only point 3 ... Sorry. 

4. FANATISM, one more important thing: Imperial soldiers will stop at nothing and would attack the stormtroopers with bayonets or even bare hands if ordered to.

To 4 .: See above. I don't think real fanaticism is the rule in the Imperial Army and it's not always welcomed. Many an imperial commanders would rather have a disciplined army that reacts to orders and does not throw itself at the enemy like a bloodthirsty mob without sense or understanding. Here one must not confuse the propaganda of the Ecclesiarchy with the reality on the battlefield. The average soldier is a simple person who just wants to escape from this hell of death and explosions. Blind fanaticism is reserved for the mindless mobs of pilgrims and redemptionists, and even these are mostly nothing more than more or less useless living shields for the "real" soldiers.

5. In the Imperial Guard there are FAR more different weapons or troops. Every single Imperial regiment has different tactics and different weapons, so there is no single tactic against the Imperial Guard. Prominent examples are: Iron Guard from Mordian, Ice Warriors Valhallas, PUSH troops from Cadia, jungle fighters from Catachan, Colonel Steiner's gallows birds, Death Corps from War (yes, the planet is called that), Steel Legion from Armageddon, etc. The types of troops are also diverse: Ogryns, commissioners ( Who shoot everyone who flees), psykers, guardsmen, veterans,
Priests of the Eclessiarchy, Techadepts of Mars, an incredible number of tanks and much more. That alone would make any counter-tactic obsolete

Regarding 5: You are of course right with the variation in weapons and tactics. However, I'm not exactly sure how much this can be seen as an advantage. The problem with extremely specialized regiments is that they are only effective when they are fighting the enemy or on the terrain for which they are specially equipped and trained. A regiment of jungle fighters from Catachan is worthless on an ice world or a tundra world, while Valhallans in the jungle will drown in their own sweat. The "all-around" approach of the stormtroopers is much more effective. With their combat armor, they are prepared for pretty much any environmental condition and, with a few modifications, can even fight in extreme conditions such as ice worlds or even the vacuum of space. The Imperial Army is far less flexible in this regard. If it is assumed that a campaign also includes jungle worlds, then Catachans must be requested, if you fight in the ice, then you need Valhallans and if they are used up (or are not available due to the long transport routes) then you are unlucky had. Stormtroopers may lose out against Catachans on a jungle world, but any stormtrooper can be used effectively on any battlefield, unlike the Catachans. And as you said yourself, individual battles do not win a war.

6. When we speak of equal troop strength, we mean either small skirmishes with 40-500 men on each side, or huge battles with hundreds of thousands to millions of men. So if the Galactic Empire and its Stormtroopers win a skirmish, that wouldn't change anything! There might be a footnote in some chronology of the campaign, but nothing more! They can't win a war like this! However, if they were to fight in a massive battle, the Galactic Empire would have to use a large part of its forces, but most likely lose it anyway, since no human can defeat the Guard in massive battles. Even if the stormtroopers defeat and destroy a regiment or the like in battle, the empire would still have millions in replacement while the galactic empire is bled to death

To 6 .: You are of course absolutely right on this point. In the long term and measured against the respective total capacities of the two empires, the Warhammer 40k empire “probably” has the upper hand. I'm not quite as convinced of this as I was when we recorded the episode (I underestimated the mobility factor of the Star Wars Empire a bit), but the Galactic Empire could only offer resistance for a while and the WH40k Empire seriously Losses and headaches cause, but when measured against threats such as the Tyranids or the forces of chaos, it cannot keep up in numbers alone. In space, the mobility of the Galactic Empire would most likely make itself felt, but it simply does not have enough troops on the ground to defend itself against the BILLIONS of Imperial soldiers in the long term, let alone conquer planets and hold them permanently. And here factors like space marines and titans are not even included. Perhaps best to compare the Galactic Empire to the Star Empire of the Tau, because that is the only faction in the WH40k universe (except perhaps the Tyranids in their own way) that is not technologically stagnant. Perhaps the Galactic Empire could conquer a small region on the edge of the Empire of mankind and protect it from the outside with its mighty fleet, but more would probably not be possible.

Oh and because of the Ewoks ... I would like to point out that they also managed to capture a trained Jedi Knight and his very combat-experienced followers in advance. So there seems to be more to them than the first glance reveals.

And how do you know the doors on the Trade Federation command ship are made of steel? After all, we are in a galaxy far, far away and they are sure to have more trouble with annoying Jedi.

So, that's it for me ... Sorry, this has now become a real novel, but if someone takes the effort to comment in such detail, then they deserve a detailed answer! Please continue! And like to take apart anything you think is wrong.

TL; DR: Read the damn text. Why are you here otherwise?